Agendas & Minutes

August 24, 2004

TUESDAY – 7:00 P.M.
AUGUST 24, 2004



1.    Call to order.

A.    Pledge of allegiance
B.    Welcome

2.    Discussion regarding agenda items.

3.    Announcements.

4.    Public Comment (Action may not be taken on matters considered during this period until specifically included on an agenda as an action item (NRS 241.020(2)(C)(3).

5.    “Good News” regarding people, events, awards, celebrations or occasions that reflects positively for those within the community.

6.    Discussion, action and decision regarding promotional items, i.e. rodeo and/or carnival tickets for Chamber of Commerce Wild West Extravaganza.  

7.    Third reading and discussion, action and decision regarding fourth amendment to Pahrump Town Ordinance #35 – Business License.  Town Board

8.    First Reading of third amendment to Pahrump Town Ordinance #32 – Room Tax. Concerning Recreational Vehicle Fees.  Town Manager

9.    First Reading of Pahrump Town Ordinance #46 – Malibou Street truck traffic and speed limits.  Town Manager

10.    Discussion, action and decision regarding proposed purchase of ladder truck for Pahrump Valley Fire-Rescue Service.  Chief Lewis

11.    Town Manager’s Report.

12.    Advisory Board Reports.

13.    Discussion, action and decision regarding membership on Public Lands Advisory Board.  

14.    Discussion, action and decision regarding acceptance of proposals from City of North Las Vegas and Sound Smith Audio for Fall Festival.  Jeanna Howard

15.    Discussion, action and decision regarding update to the Town Manager’s Policy and Procedures.  Town Manager

16.    Discussion, action and decision regarding amendment to the Town’s Personnel Policy concerning severance pay – Resolution #2004-12.  Town Manager

17.    Consent Agenda: (Approve in one motion.)

A.    Action – approval of Town vouchers.
B.    Action – approval of Special Town Board meeting minutes of August 9, 2004
C.    Action – approval of  Town Board meeting minutes of August 10, 2004
D.    Action – approval of ambulance billing write offs

18.    Adjournment.


SPECIAL NOTE: Any member of the public who is disabled and requires accommodations or assistance at this meeting is requested to notify the Pahrump Town Office in writing, or call 775-727-5107 prior to the meeting.  Assisted listening devices are available at Town Board meetings upon request.



Paula Glidden                        
Richard Billman                
Charlotte LeVar
Jeanna Howard
Ed Bishop
Cristina Hinds, Attorney


Chairman Paula Glidden called the meeting to order and led in the pledge of allegiance.  Ms. Glidden welcomed all those in attendance.


Paula Glidden asked that the following items be removed:
Item #15 – Discussion, action and decision regarding update to the Town Manager’s Policy and Procedures
Item #16 – Discussion, action and decision regarding amendment to the Town’s Personnel Policy concerning severance pay – Resolution #2004-12

Charlotte LeVar asked why these items are being removed.  Ms. Glidden stated that after not talking with the Town Manager, she feels a couple of things need a workshop in order to look at them further.  Paula Glidden said there are too many questions regarding this to move forward.

Mrs. LeVar asked Cristina Hinds how she feels about this matter and could the Board go ahead with these times.  Ms. Hinds replied said the Board could if they felt comfortable with it as she has not spoke to any Board members regarding their feelings toward it.  Charlotte LeVar said she has no problems with it.  Paula Glidden said she does have problems and reservations regarding this and the Board needs to come together a little more as a Board with a possible closed session regarding as there are too many questions in the policy to debate it here.  

Jeanna Howard recommended that this be forwarded to Beller and Associates for input as they are the Town Human Resources liaison or contractor.  

Dave Richards asked which issue is of concern.  Ms. Howard replied her concern is with number 15 of the policy.  Jeanna Howard stated that she feels the policy is actually variances in the job description, such as adding and changing responsibilities.  Mr. Richards replied that number 15
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August 24, 2004

is not and Beller and Associates wrote number 16.  Ms. Howard said it would be interesting to get input from Beller and Associates as their Human Resources background indicates that it is usual and customary in government to offer severance pay to staff.  Mr. Richards responded that it is and that is why they wrote it.  Ms. Howard questioned that Beller and Associates wrote it.  Mr. Richards replied yes.  Jeanna Howard said she spoke with Larry Beller and he was not aware of this Resolution.  Mr. Richards said that Ann Silver did it.  Ms. Howard pointed out that Mr. Beller said he is not communicating with Ms. Silver and was unaware of what Ms. Silver had done.  Jeanna Howard explained that Ann Silver was called out of town on a family emergency and was unable to talk to her.

Richard Billman said he did not understand the reason for a closed session.  Paula Glidden said the Board needs more than a five minutes discussion on policies and procedures.  Mr. Billman stated he does not see a reason this cannot be discussed in an open meeting.  Ed Bishop agreed.  

Ms. Glidden stated she had questions and did not have a chance to discuss this matter with Dave Richards.  

The items remained on the agenda.


Charlotte LeVar announced:

Pahrump Regional Planning Commission will meet on August 25, at 6:00 p.m. in the Hall;
Early voting will take place at the Community Center Hall, August 30 through September 1 from 7:00 a.m. until 7:00 p.m. each of those days;
PVFRS Task Force will meet each Wednesday at 6:00 p.m. in the Town Annex;
Public Lands Advisory Board is scheduled to meet September 1 at 7:00 p.m. in Room B;
Tourism Advisory Board will meet on September 2 at 8:00 a.m. in the Annex;
Nuclear Waste and Environmental Advisory Board will meet on September 2, at 7:00 p.m. in Room A;
Commissioners Cox and Trummell will hold their pre agenda workshop on September 4 at 9:00 a.m. in Room B;
The Town Office will be closed on Monday, September 6 in observance of Labor Day;
The Primary election will take place on September 7 from 7:00 a.m. until 7:00 p.m. in the Community Center and Manse Elementary.  Check your sample ballot for your polling location;
Department of Energy Community Advisory Board is scheduled to meet September 8 in the Hall beginning at noon;
Sheriff Tony DeMeo is schedule to hold his open forum on September 12 at 1:00 p.m. in the Hall.

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August 24, 2004

Ed Maznicky announced that SCORE (Service Corp of Retired Executives) has an office in the Chamber of Commerce and a telephone number of 727-9471.  The SCORE office will be opened for business the day after Labor Day, September 7.  

Jim Petell announced that the Regional Planning Commission is holding a Special meeting on August 25 at 6:00 p.m. in the Hall.  Mr. Petell also announced that the Commissioners will meet on August 25 at 9:00 a.m.   Another Commissioners Budget Workshop will be held on August 26 at 8:30 a.m.  The final announcement by Mr. Petell was that on August 26 there will be a meeting in Amargosa at 7:00 p.m. to present the Nye County Well Owners Association to discuss well depth and land.  

Paul Willis announced that the Nye County Republicans will hold their annual barbeque on September 29 at Front Sight.  Activities will begin at 2:00 p.m. and the barbeque will be at 5:00 p.m.


Jim Petell commented that he has concerns regarding the Fall Festival Entertainment budget, both past and future due to citizen concerns.  Paula Glidden suggested he talk with the Entertainment Committee Chairman to relieve his concerns or talk to the Town Manager.  
Jeanna Howard responded that Mr. Petell has inaccurate information and noted that Mr. Petell did not return her calls to address this matter.  

Paula Glidden suggested Jim Petell address his concerns with the Fall Festival Executive meeting which is a public forum.  

Charlotte LeVar commented that she is concerned with the impact fee.  Mrs. LeVar stated she heard that this fee would be retroactive and how far back would retroactive be.  Charlotte LeVar said she hoped that the Commissioners would look closer at this issue.  

Art Jones welcomes Ed Bishop back.  Mr. Bishop has been absent due to illness.

Paul Bohn asked for the support of the Board in efforts to put on a Veteran’s Day Parade on November 13 on Calvada Boulevard at the high school ending at Honeysuckle Park followed by a picnic.  Paula Glidden explained that this is under public comment and the Board cannot take action at this time.  Ms. Glidden suggested Mr. Bohn talk with the Town Manager to have this placed on an agenda for discussion.

Patricia Cox commented that the Community College of Southern Nevada Advisory Board wished to advise the public that school will be starting soon and class enrollment is high.  Ms. Cox explained the Dollars for Scholars program and asked for community support in raising funds for secondary education for students.  
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Paula Glidden welcomed Ed Bishop back.

Rodd Fernandez, spoke in behalf of the International Association of Fire Fighters Local 4068.  Mr. Fernandez explained their participation of the firefighters in the Muscular Dystrophy Association (MDA) Boot Drive.  Rodd Fernandez noted that the boot drive will take place in Pahrump on August 27 and September 2 and 3.  

Mr. Fernandez announced that the Pahrump Valley Fire-Rescue Service was awarded a proclamation from Governor Kenny Guinn concerning the dedication of firefighters with the boot drive for MDA.  

Rodd Fernandez also announced that he accepted, on behalf of PVFRS, a flag that was flown over the Capitol in Washington D.C. from Senator Harry Reid.  

Paula Glidden announced that Senator Harry Reid was in Pahrump over the past weekend and presented Chief Lewis with a check for $100,000 for an ambulance.  


Paula Glidden stated that she has spoke to Dave Richards regarding this matter as the Wild West Extravaganza has asked for the Town’s participation with a façade for a Town Hall in their Wild West town.  Other vendors will be participating and selling their items.  Paula Glidden said it would be good opportunity to promote the Fall Festival and the Town could sell tickets for the rodeo and carnival at the location.  Ms. Glidden asked for other promotion items to sell at that time.  

Charlotte LeVar Motioned that the Town should be part of the Wild West Extravaganza.  

Ms. LeVar noted that $100 is needed for participation and Ms. Glidden pointed out that the Town would have to provide a façade that will be representative of the Town.  Paula Glidden said it will take work by Buildings and Grounds but would be good for the Town to be involved.  

Ed Bishop seconded the motion.

Richard Billman said he was not clear and asked how the Town would be involved.  Paula Glidden explained that this event is held the week before Fall Festival at Saddle West.  The area

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will have an old west town and each booth/vendor will have an old west themed façade.  The booth will have to be manned for this event.  

Paula Glidden asked that promotional items be added as part of the motion, such as bumper stickers.  

Charlotte LeVar amended her motion to include some kind of promotional items as well as being able to sell the rodeo and carnival tickets and anything else to do with Fall Festival.  Ed Bishop seconded the amendment to the motion.

Vote passed 5 – 0.

Cristina Hinds asked how the Board envisions spending the money.  If there is an expense will it be brought back before the Board, Ms. Hinds asked, or will the Town Manager be given the discretion to spend the money.  

Paula Glidden explained that this is something the Town Staff can put together with regards to the façade.  Richard Billman noted that the costs should be minimal.


Charlotte LeVar read:

A fourth act amending Pahrump Town Ordinance #35 to add additional enforcement provisions; repealing all provisions inconsistent hereto; providing for severability; repeal; effective date; and other matters properly relating thereto.

Ed Bishop announced that he would participate in discussions on this item but he would be abstaining from this vote as he has not been present for the first two readings.  

Richard Billman Motioned to accept the matter as amended to Town Ordinance #35.  Charlotte LeVar seconded the motion.

Paul Willis commented that he has been asked if there is an opportunity for health care and insurance through the business license, such as forming a pool of small businesses.  Mr. Willis asked if this could be looked into.  Richard Billman explained that the Chamber of Commerce can get a group policy.  Mr. Billman noted that he knows of no way the Town can offer this.  

Vote passed 4 – 0 – 1.  Ed Bishop abstained.  

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Charlotte LeVar read the title to this amendment to PTO #32.

An amendment to Pahrump Town Ordinance #32 providing for a new tax for recreational vehicle courts; adding enforcement provisions; repeal, severability; and other matters properly relating thereto.

There were no comments at this time.


Charlotte LeVar read the title to this ordinance as follows:

An act amending Pahrump Town Ordinance #14 to prohibit the use of commercial motor vehicles unless operated in designated truck routes; establishing penalty for violations thereof; providing for repeal; severability; effective date; and other matters properly relating thereto.

There were no comments on this item.


Chief Scott Lewis explained that for the past 18 months there has been work being done for the acquisition of a ladder truck.  Chief Lewis and found that purchasing a new ladder truck is cost prohibitive.  There is a new opportunity afforded to the Town in the way of a remanufactured apparatus from Vermont.  Scott Lewis said he was looking for a general discussion about this apparatus with the Town Manager following up on considerations for financing.  

Chief Lewis noted that warranties would apply to this vehicle and would be designed to our environment as well as options for financing such as leasing, lease purchase and outright purchase.  Scott Lewis reminded the Board that the purchase of a new ladder truck was approximately $700,000.  Chief Lewis said he has been looking into the used market for the past year and the used market has not been conducive to our needs in our environment and we do not have the options available for financing.  The apparatus would be being purchased “as is.”  

Scott Lewis explained that there is a company in Vermont that remanufactures apparatus which means it gives the opportunities for warranties almost at the same level as new apparatus up to 10 years on body components.  The design specifications allow the vehicle to be designed for our environment specifically.  These vehicles are certified.  There is currently a vehicle available to
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the Town of Pahrump.  It is a 75 foot 1991 MAC, mid mount.  Chief Lewis stated that by purchasing this vehicle it helps to eliminate a lot of the liability aspect of the Town and will meet the current 2004 standards.  Scott Lewis addressed the ISO rating as a concern for the Town which would improve with the acquisition of this apparatus.  Chief Lewis noted that the purchase price is $341,000.  

Chief Lewis showed a picture of the type of apparatus referred to and shared some of the advantages of this vehicle and how it can be used in rescue operations as well as flooding situations.

Jeanna Howard asked how much time we have until this is no longer available to the Town.  Chief Lewis stated that the vehicle is available now and it is necessary to know soon so body specifications can be done to our environment.  There are several other departments interested in this truck and they go quickly due to the warranties that come with the truck.  

Charlotte LeVar asked the Town Manager for a recommendation.

Dave Richards stated that he supports the purchase of this vehicle.  Mr. Richards said it is a useful piece of apparatus and is within the Town’s mean to purchase.  Dave Richards added that the Town is currently investigating financing options and also investigating the need for bidding this purchase.  This issue came to light after the back up was prepared.  Mr. Richards said he would caution the Town Board to not approve the purchase at this time because work is being done with the auditor to find an answer to how the Town can finance rather than purchase.  Mr. Richards pointed out that the problem is that Pahrump is an unincorporated Town and not able to incur the cost itself.  Dave Richards said the County may have to be approached which has been done before.  Research is being done and staff is moving ahead on the pursuit on this apparatus.  Mr. Richards stated he does not think the Town Board is ready to take action to approve the purchase.  

Richard Billman clarified that Mr. Richards is recommending that the Board take no action.  Dave Richards agreed and stated that it would be brought back at the next Town Board meeting and make sure to contact the dealer to retain the vehicle.  

Charlotte LeVar asked if Dave Richards has this agendized with the County Commissioners to see about the possibility to purchase this vehicle.  Mr. Richards said it has not been agendized but have talked to the Administration in an effort to do so.  

Paula Glidden commented that if the Town waits on this it may lose the possibility which is a concern.  Ms. Glidden asked Chief Lewis what timeline he thinks is available.  Chief Lewis said he has been working on this for approximately three weeks and the manufacturer is pressed as they have others interested.  

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Charlotte LeVar said her problem is that if there is no money in the budget how do we get it.  Chief Lewis replied that it was budgeted for a lease in this fiscal budget as well as last year.  Dave Richards stated the issue is not if the funding is there it is the legality of the Town incurring the debt.  

Paula Glidden asked if the Board should move forward in an effort to encourage the County to work with the Town.  Could it be passed contingent upon the County’s approval, Ms. Glidden asked.  Dave Richards said that would be appropriate.  

Ed Bishop said that the word bid was used and asked if this was because of the dollar value that it should go out to bid.  Dave Richards replied that is what he has been told and he is trying to find a way around that or a way to work with it.  Chief Lewis said the reason for that is that we are not taking an existing Pahrump owned vehicle to be remanufactured.  The Company owns the vehicle which makes it more than difficult to get bids from anyone.  

Richard Billman stated that this seems to be a unique item since it is a used item.  If the item were new there may be more people with the item and can then bid it out.  Cristina Hinds agreed that this is a unique situation.

Dave Richards stated that all we need is the Town’s Attorney willing to support the Town’s effort to purchase.  If Ms. Hinds will defend it than we will do what the Town Board wants.  

Richard Billman Motioned that subject to securing funding or partnering, or whatever we have to do with the County Commission, the purchase as outlined.  Jeanna Howard seconded the motion.

Dave Richards said he is comfortable with the way this has evolved.  

Jeanna Howard asked if Mr. Billman would add “up to $350,000” to the motion.  Paula Glidden asked for clarification on the amount.  Richard Billman stated that $341,000 was what the information stated and assumed that is what was being proposed.  

Vote passed 5 – 0.  


Dave Richards reported that there will be a Goals and Objectives session with Beller and Associates/Ann Silver on September 13 at 6:00 p.m. in the Town Annex.  The Town Board and Administration will be there to discuss goals and objectives for the next year.

Mr. Richards reported that the fairgrounds water rights transfer that was presented to the Board by Mr. Hafen has been forwarded to Resource Concepts, Inc.  The Fairgrounds Advisory Board has requested the Civilwise Services do the road work for Fox Avenue.  Both projects are underway.  
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Dave Richards reported that he met with Concordia Homes who are the new owners of the sod farm property on Homestead and Thousandaire.  They have indicated their willingness to eliminate the tumbleweed problem.  They stated they will act quickly to resolve the issue as it exists now and in the future if necessary.  

Mr. Richards reported that he met with Nye County representatives administrative staff to discuss the need for formal written agreement for Brothel Funds and also for dispatch services.  There has been an issue this year about how those funds were accounted because there is no written agreement for either of those issues.  Also discussed in this meeting were the problems the ambulance service was having in getting identification and address documentation for inmates that are served by the ambulance service   The County has agreed to make a better attempt at providing that documentation so the Town can successfully collect from those inmates that use the service.  

Dave Richards reported that he met with the Bureau of Land Management (BLM) to discuss designation of the Airport Planning District to preclude any intrusion or acquisition by other parties until the planning process is complete.  Approximately 7,000 acres are within the Planning District.  The airport property is much smaller.  Dave Richards said he asked that anyone wishing to use any of the 7,000 acres would have to come before the Town to get permission as well as BLM.  This would avoid conflicts like those currently occurring.  This was also discussed with Senator Reid’s office and they have promised to assist the Town in this effort.


There were no reports by advisory boards at this time.


Charlotte LeVar Motioned to accept George Gingell to the Public Lands Advisory Board.  Ed Bishop seconded the motion.  

Vote passed 5 – 0.  


Cookie Westphal explained that VBK Sound and Lighting Company proposed $3450 to provide sound and lighting to the entertainment stage for Fall Festival.  Ms. Westphal stated that after he reviewed his bid he withdrew his bid citing that his technical man would be out of the country for the month of October.  At that time, the Entertainment Committee realized there was not
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enough time to build a stage for the event this year and began seeking other communities to partner with that have mobile states.  It was found that the City of North Las Vegas has a 24’ x 20’ x 19’ stage that is available for use Fall Festival weekend.  The cost of renting this at the government rate would be $4,725.  This would include all the lighting.  Other communities that have this sort of equipment did not have availability on the dates needed.  Cookie Westphal explained that since the stage comes with lighting, all that would be needed is sound support and received the lowest quote from Sound Smith Audio at $2,410 for audio.  This would include the technician to operate the equipment for three days.  

Jeanna Howard explained that the Entertainment Committee went before the Tourism Advisory Board and was given $11,000 with $4,000 additional going toward publicity.  The Entertainment Committee then asked the Town Board for $14,000 from the State Room Tax fund and it was approved.  There would be no subsidy coming directly from the Fall Festival Fund.  The vendor the Entertainment Committee agreed to withdrew his proposal, therefore making the Entertainment Committee return to the table for this support.  Ms. Howard explained that the Entertainment Committee had three meetings regarding the development of a stage which the Town would own.  Ms. Howard said Fall Festival will be requesting to use up to half of the money received from Tourism for renting a stage.  The balance would be left in the Tourism account until a later date when building a stage begins to happen.  Fundraisers will be held to raise the rest of the funds to pay for the stage.  

Jeanna Howard Motioned to accept the two contracts from the City of North Las Vegas for stage rental and Sound Smith Audio for sound technical support totaling $7,135 which will cancel any other prior contracts voted on by the Town Board relating to sound and lighting.  Richard Billman seconded the motion.  

Vote passed 5 – 0.


Dave Richards explained that he and the Town’s Attorney have been reviewing the Town policies for some time and stated that a copy of the entire policy concerning the Town Manager is included in backup.  The policy has been amended and changes have been noted in italics.  Mr. Richards said he is willing to discuss any issues that the Town Board might have, or answer any questions.  

Cristina Hinds added that the language within the brackets are items proposed to be removed.  

Charlotte LeVar Motioned to accept the Town Manager’s Policy and Procedures.  Ed Bishop seconded the motion.  

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August 24, 2004

Cristina Hinds pointed out that in Item #17, the last clause in italics should state except for department heads.  

Jeanna Howard asked about a request for overtime for attending advisory board meeting.  Mr. Richards said he did not recall that.  Ed Bishop stated that it was in Item #4 but noted that the overtime statement is in brackets and as explained by Ms. Hinds that would be deleted.  

Ms. Howard pointed out that the Town Manager’s job description requires at least a two year degree in Public Administration or Business and this is not in the policy.  Jeanna Howard clarified that there is a job description and there is a policy.  Cristina Hinds stated that the job description was created each time the Board sought out someone new.  This is a floor, not a ceiling, Ms. Hinds stated.  Dave Richards suggested that the policy read a minimum desirable or add the two year qualification.  Ms. Howard suggested that they both be consistent.  Cristina Hinds asked what was being requested.  If higher qualifications were added and the Board wanted to higher someone with lesser qualifications it would not be able to.  Jeanna Howard suggested a minimum of a two year degree in Public Administration or Business.  

Jeanna Howard asked if the Board had further input.  No one replied.

Ms. Howard asked if the spending limit.  Richard Billman noted that that has been discussed previously and was the only major change that he saw in the policy increasing the Town Manager’s spending up to $5,000 from $1,500.  Cristina Hinds noted that the current spending limit is $3,000.  Jeanna Howard asked why the policy states for non-emergency matters.  If it is not a non emergency matter it should come before the Town Board.  Cristina Hinds explained that situations have arisen where the level has been set previously.   Charlotte LeVar said the Town Manager would have to atone for his/her sins if the expenditures were not warranted.  Richard Billman said he has always been objectionable to micromanaging of the Town.  

Jeanna Howard asked Dave Richards if he had any personnel changes in mind as there is a lot of personnel stuff relating to authority he already has.  Dave Richards said he does have some suggestions that will come to light in the next month or so regarding reorganization, yes.  

Charlotte LeVar said if the Board did not feel that a Town Manager had the ability to manage the Town and staff, it would then become the responsibility of the Board on a five day, forty hour week.  

Paul Willis commented that the Board should make him earn his money.  

Charlotte LeVar amended her Motion to include the changes that were discussed, the two year degree and except for department heads on item #17.  

Jeanna Howard clarified that the Assistant Town Manager is obviously not a department head.  Dave Richards replied that is correct.  
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Ed Bishop seconded the amended motion.  
Vote passed 5 – 0.


Ed Bishop Motioned to accept Resolution #2004-12.  Charlotte LeVar seconded the motion.

Ed Bishop asked if this is the item that Dave Richards said Beller and Associates actually wrote.  Dave Richards replied that is correct.  Mr. Richards noted that Ann Silver wrote the resolution from Beller and Associates.  

Vote passed 4 – l.  Jeanna Howard voted nay.


A.    Action – approval of vouchers
B.    Action – approval of Special Town Board meeting minutes of August 9, 2004
C.    Action – approval of town board meeting minutes of august 10, 2004
D.    Action – approval of ambulance billing write offs

Ed Bishop asked if items B & C could be done separately as he was not present at those meetings and would be abstaining on those items.

Richard Billman Motioned to approve items A & D as listed above.  Charlotte LeVar seconded the motion.

Vote passed 5 – 0.

Richard Billman Motioned to approve items B & C as listed above..  Charlotte LeVar seconded the motion.

Vote passed 4 – 0 – 1.  Ed Bishop abstained.

Before the adjournment Charlotte LeVar read a statement of her resignation effective August 24, 2004 due to her family relocating out of the area.  


Paula Glidden adjourned the meeting.  

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August 24, 2004

Respectfully submitted,

Paula Glidden, Chairman

cc:    Town Clerk                    
    Nye County Treasurer                
    Town Board                    
    Nye County Planning            
    Nye County Commissioners            
            Nye County Clerk                       
            Cristina Hinds
            Dan McArthur                                                                   






There is no backup posted for this meeting.